59 Understanding the Walls of Division in Black Skin

The following Blog 59 was originally published on December 21, 2011.  It was unpublished a few days later after I got a call for the Starfire people who expressed their displeasure.  Trying to cope with their sensitivities, I volunteered to have it unpublished.  I have gagged myself wasting the opportunity of sharing my thoughts with my blog readers who could very well learn in the process.  I have regretted this, and so now, I am republishing it. The pictures of the Starfire dogs have been removed because I do not have their permission as they said so much earlier.

Follows the original blog 59 with additions thereafter.

 

 

 

 


It is Christmas time and for many of us here in the Philippines, …and I suppose in most of the Western world, it is a time enjoy the gift of family members  and friends, some frequently encountered, some much less.  It is a time of sentimentalism, recalling the past joyful associations and the excitement of things to come.  In this context, it saddens me to see that the walls of division that has risen between two breeders, Starfire and Chriscendo, both of whom I greatly admire.  It is not just the individuals but their followers as well  who have joined in the bandwagon of discord and hostilities.

The Facebook group illustrates this point:   There are three(3) Facebook Black Skin Groups starting the group called: 

1.  THE BLACK SKIN DISEASE IN POMERANIANS ….followed by

2.  STARFIRE’S LET’S BE HONEST ABOUT BSD….then followed by

3.  BLACK SKIN DISEASE(BSD) IN POMERANIANS(FLAME FREE VERSION).  

By simple observation…readers of this blog will know what has transpired.  The resurrection of the 2nd group, Starfire’s… would suggest that the first group was not honest.  In my opinion, it was diplomatic and there are things that should not just be said openly and publicly because it is hurtful to the feelings of others.  There is the thing called privacy.  The emergence of the 3rd group, again just by plain observation would suggest that the second group was a FLAME version which necessitated the organization of the third group that was FLAME free.  And so, this explains what has transpired between Starfire and Chriscendo this past year.

But when you look at the basics, both Starfire and Chriscendo  are really in the same boat with bloodlines but with differing  perspective, approaches and priorities in getting out of bsd.  It is the intention of this blog to hopefully put some common ground on the issues involved and perhaps, lead to the direction of reconciliation.

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Starfire has the record  number of wins at the American Pomeranian Nationals.  Tony and Fabian are very successful breeders  and quite well known in the international Pomeranian circles.  Their big wins are probably due to their focus on movement and showmanship.  As Tony tells me, you have to have the movement to win.  In some way, it implies, his priority is in movement over breed type.  Starfire poms are spread around the world on a limited and selective basis, being a small kennel and being very selective in the placement of their quality dogs.   I have not really pursued Starfire dogs in the past, mainly because of the bsd fear ….plus,  I was not attracted to their breed type…not until I saw (1) Wolfie, aka, Am Ch Starfire’s Here Comes Trouble.  

The only Starfire in my breeding program is a Parker daughter that I acquired on a swap deal…Ph Gr Ch Starfire’s Alyana.  I am still waiting for puppies from her.  I am hoping one day to find a suitable Starfire dog/bitch which could be incorporated in my breeding program in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

Chriscendo, in the person of Chris and John have shaped the minds of many Pomeranian breeders and judges today.  Starting with being the artist for the American Pomeranian Breed Standard, her friendly personality and skillful networking, Chris has managed to hypnotize the world with the Chriscendo look, ….teddy bear faces with fabulous cotton candy coats that are to die for coats with  big chunky legs like big posts…in effect, redefining what a Pomeranian should look like…practically looking like a different breed.  This is really contrary to what the breed standard says which calls for fox-like expression with wedged-shaped muzzles, medium bones(fine bones like china/porcelain in the English standard) and harsh stand-off coats.  Closely associated with that Pomeranian classic look is mischievous impish expression which is so endearing and which is the essence of the breed.  Nevertheless, the Chriscendo look remains in the minds of breeders and judges of what the ideal Pomeranian should be…and they  win…win…win.   Perhaps not the kind of bigger winnings of the Starfire Pomeranians who has been focused on movement to win,  the Chriscendo breed type has created a big following  with  admirers all over the world.

The  Chriscendo bloodline is so popular that it is practically behind most show pomeranian in the USA…including  Starfire.   Canada and Thailand are what I call Chriscendo country.  This year’s World Dog Show in Paris, France, illustrates the growing impact of Chriscendo Pomeranians in Europe and the rest of the world.  They are the flavor of the month for most judges who are unexposed to the classic Pomeranian look as that of Hadleigh of yesteryears which illustrated the correct Pomeranian breed type.

I admire Chris for the impact she has created in the breed…how she has shape the mindset of the Pomeranian fancy.  Though, I still cling to the old Hadleigh heads, (such as (2) Eng Ch Hadleigh Shining Star, (3)  Jap Ch Fisherman Dream,  (4)  Jap Ch Hadleigh Superman and (5) Eng Ch Derronill Maxamillion),  selective blending of the Chriscendo relatives(that are not bsd, not too chowey, etc)  has enhanced my breeding program through the bloodlines of  (6)  Jake, aka Am Ch Oakridge Rock N Tradition(ascendant), (7)   Rudy, aka Am Ch Valcopy Wakham Valentino(descendant), and (8)  Parker, aka, Am Ch Pufpride Sweet Dreams(descendant).   I believe that the blend has enhanced my coats…while maintaining the harsh stand off coats, somehow the coat density, thickness …without bsd.


It is in this regard, I want to repeat what I have stated in my earlier blog…GIVE HONOR TO THOSE WHO ARE AHEAD OF US… Though I may not fully agree with the Chriscendo look.  I have this bloodline way back in SOME in some of my pedigree.  Furthermore, with my close working relationship and partnering with Virginia Dimick of Pufpride Pomeranians, I will be having more of this bloodline in one branch of my breeding program.

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I am hoping to act as a peacemaker and perhaps in the process help the rationalize the strategy  of some of  the followers of  both camps, many of whom I know are also my blog readers.   After all, this is dog sports…and it is in this kind of common interest where walls break down…not walls going up!  If I recall correctly, during the time of President Nixon, because of a mere ping pong game, diplomatic relations between the USA and China was re-established after decades of broken diplomatic relationships.

Similarly, dog sports, specifically the Pomeranian fancy should be instrumental in developing and deepening friendships…not hostilies and enemies.  Like music, it is food for the soul.  We should appreciate our similarities and respect(not the same as tolerate)our  differences.  As they say in US, the land of promise, there is room for everyone….everyone can dream…everyone can do their own thing.  Let the duly chosen organization such as the American Pomeranian Club do the police-ing and their respective Boards do the evaluation of what is and what is not ethical.  Let these organizations do the sanctioning, if at all.

In the dog world, people are over sensitive about their dogs.  Some are even more for their  dogs than their personal selves.  While Tony has been very vocal  talking about the bsd in this breeding, not all are as uninhibited as him.  Many, I am sure will be willing to talk with “interested parties”  about their bsd issues on a one to one basis …but telling the whole world is another thing.  I have responded to the challenge of Starfire in Facebook by naming  the limited few bsd that I have had over the past 15 years …..4-5, and they trace back to two imported females.

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I see a lot of similarities in the pedigrees of Chriscendo and Starfire and here are some of them:

(1)

 

 Am  Ch Cedarwood Image of Diamond,  produced littermates(or identical pedigrees)  (9)  Am Ch Great Elms Firestarter, (10)  Am Ch Great Elms Master Mark and interestingly, these two are full brothers to Westminister Am Ch Great Elms Prince Charming. 

Firestarter was an outcrossed and heavily used by Chriscendo siring (11) Am Ch Chriscendo Classica, the dam of  (12)  Am Ch Chriscendo Classico.  He is also the sire of (13)Am Ch Razzle Dazzle Classique which is essentially Chriscendo stuff.

Master Mark is the sire of  (14) Am Ch Starfire Nicolas El Grande, the foundation of Starfire dogs.

(2)

(15)  Am Ch Chriscendo Calvin Klein, the foundation male Chriscendo, is the grandsire of  (7)   Am Ch Valcopy Wakham Valentino(Rudy) who is in a lot of Starfire pedigrees.

(3)

(6)  Am Ch Oakridge Rock N Tradition,  nicknamed Jake, though not Chriscendo, have many similar ancestors to Chriscendo since both goes back to Millamoor.  

The  main dog of Chriscendo today(now over 10) is  (16)  Ch Chriscendo Call to Arms  whose grandsire is doubled up on Jake.

Starfire used a doubled up Jake,  Am Ch Itoba Rock N Roll Legend;  I am not quite sure about Jake direct.  

In turn, Jake’s great grandson, is (8)  Parker, aka, Am Ch Pufpride Sweet Dreams who has been used directly on indirectly by Chriscendo, ie,   (17)  Tha Am Ch Starlight Dream Comes True, a Parker son and is the sire of  Can Ch Chriscendo Chasing Dreams and Can Ch Chriscendo Come Closer.

Starfire has used Parker and all his ALL time favorite,  (18) Luther, aka Am Ch Starfire Wicked Mean N Nasty is a Parker son.  There are many of the Starfire champions sired by Parker.



The point of all this pedigree study is to point out that the similarities in the ancestors of Chriscendo and Starfire… thru different SELECTION criteria, they are totally different.  And  yet, they are very compatible in breeding as proven when Chriscendo bred to (19) Am Ch Starfire’s Hello Its El Hottie producing (20) Am Can Ch Chriscendo Cold Play and (21)  Am Can Ch Chriscendo Chili Pepper…this only proves the Chriscendo and Starfire bloodlines mixes quite well  …but they will have to combat bsd together.

If only both Chriscendo and Starfire, together with their followers and associates could work together eliminating bsd and pursuing perfection, bigger feats can be accomplished in the Pomeranian world.

For those who are interested in studying pedigrees, my website:  www.cantonpomeranians.com    has a large, though not complete database on the poms mentioned above.  Simply, do a pedigree search to see  ancestors, clicking the ancestors would lead further back  to …some until as early as the early English Pomeranians imported into the USA and some as far as the Pomeranians of  Queen Victoria; and click REVERSE PEDIGREE for descendants.   And for people who have good Pomeranian pedigree database, I would really appreciate if they could share them with me, EXCEL format, please.  Photos too.  You can email me at   [email protected].

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 History is repeating itself.  BSD in the US  and Canada today is like the testicle problems 30 years ago of the Hadleigh Pomeranians of Japan .   Like BSD, the testicle problem is very much sex-linked. 

I remember when I started in Pomeranians in 1977, I was so infatuated with Hadleigh Pomeranians….up to this day, I think they have the best headpieces possible.  Unfortunately, at that time, the biggest headache was testicle problems.  I was merely told that this was because of lack of exercise and inappropriate selective breeding…and even massage could fix it.  But really....how can you massage testicles that cannot even be felt by your fingers…a big time problem that has been inbred generation after generations.  People from Japan, from where I imported most of these poms did not seem to worry about this issue.  There was also the issue of denial.  There also was the issue of not wanting to breed out for fear of losing the breed type…anything that is not Hadleigh was not good…the American poms were miniature chow chows!.  I got so frustrated and eventually stopped in the Pomeranian fancy because the poms that eventually remained with me were unbreedable.

Two decades later, I was to find out the human intervention used. The most invasive and effective procedure was surgery to anchor one or two testicles down the scrotum.  Once the healing is completed,  it would be almost  impossible to detect.  Then, there was another way which was the use of silicone balls to falsify the missing.  Then there was also less the invasive hormone injection to bring the testicles down…apl, profasi, etc..  This hormone injection should be given at a very young age at  a month or two…the earlier the better…but you risk losing the puppy due to seizures. 

Does this sound like the bsd intervention today?  …Melatonin….Vaccine…etc

+++

When I restarted the second time around in the late 80s, I still wanted Hadleigh or at least something Hadleigh because that was the look  that I just love.  The males that I purchased were all entire with two testicles.  Breeding them to American bitches which were total outcrosses, produced entire dogs.  However, as I linebred or inbred their common ancestors,  the same old nightmare started becoming more and more prevalent…until I got a dog that was completely clear…that though I inbred on him, all his puppies will be entire.

What does this tell us based on the Mendelian theory?  (for those who are not familiar with this, please read my bsd Blogs 49 & 50, the later explaining the Mendelian theory.  It is a must for any breeder of any species to understand this.  Lack of this understanding causes unnecessary fears….there will always be a fear of something you do not understand.)

The  stud dogs with the Hadleigh bloodline that I acquired,  though entire with two testicles were again carriers of this same problem.  The various American bitches that were bred to them were clear, or at worst, carriers of the same testicle problem. 

If we simply follow the Mendelian chart, if we continue breeding away from the problem in the line, eventually, the recessive gene hidden away from what appears to be normal and correct will completely vanish…and so will the breed type.  Conversely, if you keep on breeding the same family of dogs with same recessive faults, the said faults will continue to recur and  not completely vanish. 

The trick is to have the apple and eat it too….keep the breed type minus the problem….which can only be done by selective linebreeding and inbreeding with the help of selective outcrossing.  The more you linebreed and inbreed, you CEMENT the breed type but you RISK going back to your old problem.  The more you do a selective outcross, the more you go further away from your problem, but you also go further away from your breed type.  The challenge is finding a safe compromise or medium.

And so, this is where the difference in Starfire and  Chriscendo lies. 

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Starfire will jump and risk doing an outcross as seen in his new stud dog Ch Starfire Vini Vidi Vici whose sire is a white dog from Great Rivers, whom he thinks is  bsd clear.  As Tony tells me, he would risk breed type to get out of bsd…however, with the qualification that he would not…at least, do not so badly, if at all.  I would like to point out that if you outcross, you would MAY have new faults creeping in your breeding program.

I would imagine that he in turn would use this dog to breed back to his line choosing a selective female which hopefully is as bsd clear as possible, thereby maintaining the Starfire movement  and breed type that he has worked on for years.  In this scenario, if the bitch is still Starfire, most likely, he is still linebreding

AND/ OR, he may seek other outcrosses and the resulting outcrosses….which is half original Starfire  and half outside stock could be bred back to Vini…who is half Starfire himself.  This second option may be more suitable in cleaning out the bsd problem from Starfire because the bsd gene has been diluted some more.  And at the same time , by crossing this two hybrids(half Starfire,  half outcross), he will really still linebreeding…. and as such there is a certain predictability in the litters.  Starfire is in constant search from new outcross dogs which he can infuse to his breeding program thereby cleaning  up his  bsd….eradicate, and if not, lessen this headache problem.

AND/OR, he may decide to do a second consecutive outcross, in which case he will wash out his years of breeding and lose his bloodline.  If he were to do this, perhaps, it will save him years of waiting by culling(not kill) all his females and start 100% over again.  That would be the extreme case and the other side of the pendulum.  Without doing this, and maintaining his old stock, sooner or later, be it the 2nd, 3rd, Nth generation, when he keeps some of his puppies and breeds back anything from his originating stock, he will still be somehow linebreeding on bsd origins.

Chriscendo has in her possession (with breeding rights) …the Number 1 Pom in USA for 2010….Tha Am Ch Powerpom High Performance which is sired by a Parker son from Noble Pomeranians and a Banaview bitch …which means she continues to breed to relatives…though distant but which are of the same strain.  Like the royalties of Europe  when they were politically matched, their offspring continued to produce the same type of look and same hemophelia problem…just like the poms,  the same bsd problem/other problems. 

There is the fear of losing the breed type and as Chris says, she rather stop breeding than produce ugly dogs. (But perhaps, with the availability of the right choice, they may not be ugly but even prettier).

There is also the fear of new faults creeping in the bloodline.  This is where selective and test breeding becomes so important in preventing or minimizing the risk of this from happening.

Perhaps, an ace over the sleeves of Chriscendo is the widespread popularity of her line and her close associations with so many breeders in the Americas and overseas.  Her followers, I am sure are doing different things to attack the bsd problem in their own way…some, even outcrossing like Starfire.  With a long reaching connections with breeders doing the same Chriscendo foundations and being Chriscendo friendly, Chris has other fall back positions instead of  doing the total outcross herself.  The group is so big that Starfire has called this group “the Cult.”  Some have considered this name calling a slur, but personally, I think that it is complimenting somehow.  To be a Cult leader, she must be loved and admired, not only in countries but in continents. 

What are the other differences in perspective between Starfire and Chriscendo?

Starfire is to some extent a purist when it comes to bsd.  Rather than risk having another bsd puppy, he would rather remove a bsd suspect which may not be a bsd after all.  I qualified by saying  to some extent because he is still using Luther sired bitches for breeding …and we know of course that Luther is bsd.  This is the main argument of the Chriscendo group in that since Starfire is using bsd sired bitches for breeding, Starfire is not really far off from them.

Going again back to the basics, the Mendelian theory is quite emphatic that there are only three kinds of genes….dominant(BSD clear), recessive(BSD) and carrier(Clear looking but BSD gene carrier).   If a dog is a carrier ….it does not really matter if he came from a combination of 

……….bsd x clear dog,

……….carrier x carrier dog,

……….clear x carrier dog,

……….bsd x carrier dog!

He is still a carrier.  In other words, these four scenarios of carrier ancestry are in the same boat….they are carriers.  Not one is better than the other.

Being so, why is it then such a big issue if a bsd stud dog was used for breeding…but if the resulting puppy were to be selectively chosen weeding out the bsd….and keeping the bsd carrier.  Or put another way, if Starfire is using a bsd carrier bitch for breeding that is bsd sired(dam of Ch Starfire’s Vini Vidi Vici), then why is it so objectionable if a bsd sire was used for breeding.   Perhaps, the breeder will be one generation back from what Starfire is breeding now, but then, if this individual is willing to be one step behind re bsd, why put a red flag?  Or even merely using a bsd carrier,  all  boils down to priorities.

I am not suggesting using a bsd sire for breeding.  Most definitely not.  The point of all this since bsd  is  a recessive gene, bsd will always be lurking behind what appears to be the normal and correct.   BSD though easy to reduce, but will not be so easy to totally eradicate because there are always that conflicting goals and priorities to consider

…bsd free/selective outcross versus breed type/in and line breeding

…bsd or other priorities such as other health issues like patella, thyroid, etc

….bsd  or soundness like fronts and rears, top line, movement, etc

…bsd  or tails and tailsets, colors, etc

….bsd or personal limitations such as budget, stud dog locations, etc

Does is not make more sense to be united and work out this bsd problem together?

…and as my friend Brett Abraham reacted to this blog, “…it worries me as a breed newcomer to see such detrimental division in the breed.  I hope this(blog) may in someway cause people to rethink  support  or otherwise of  the Nationals being judged by Fabian  and Tony.  Perhaps the Nationals  can be seen as an opportunity for reconciliation for the benefit of the breed rather than a blight on history by making it a divisive event.” 

December 21, 2011, unpublished after a few days, republished October 30, 2012

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The following are new additions to my original blog 59.  They are subsequent comments and email interchanges regarding this article:

With Alane Levinsohn(Showcase Pomeranians)

December 26. 2011

Dear Basilio,

I heard that you wrote a very good article on the division in our breed.  Would it be possible to read it?  You always have such good insight into situations.

Best regards, Alane

December  26, 2011

Dear Alane,

This is confidential.

I wrote that article hoping to be a peacemaker and perhaps as a favor to Tony and Fabian re their upcoming Nationals which I thought may be boycotted by the other side.  I talked to Chris about it and she was open to healing which may take time.  Unfortunately, I received 3 phone calls from Fabian and he was extremely upset about it....3 phone calls at 430 in the morning, my time.  They found several things offensive...one, they do not want to be compared to Chris plus the photos of their dogs side by side with Chriscendo(quite frankly, if you are in a dog show, whether you like it or not, you will be compared!)  two, it hurts them for me to say that they use bsd sired bitches which they do!  Vini is sired by an  El Hottie bitch, which is bsd.....Bling Bling is sired by Alberto who is bsd/bsd suspicious and his dam is by Luther who is also bsd....the truth is painful medicine.  three, they were very upset I was praising Chriscendo and they feel I was saying they were shit, which in reality, Gaurav tells me that I was favoring Starfire....four.....they do not seem to be reading/objective people and too emotional...(I can always do another article...and communicate the same message without referring to them......but it is ironic, that they are so hypersensitive about themselves but not about what they say about Chris.  Somehow, this bothers me very much.

I have no desire to offend anybody...and if I cannot help in bringing about reconciliation, I thought it was better to forget about it...I offered to remove the blog for friendship sake.  I did not retract.

Per your request, I am attaching the article but this should not be re-circulated.

Basilio

December 27, 2011

Dear Basilio,  This article is as well written as I expected.  There is nothing here that is not truthful and not accurate.  I find it heartbreaking that this breed is so divided over an issue that SHOULD be drawing us together to solve.  

And lastly, I appreciate your candor on the Hadleigh line – there are a few things that I have discovered since bringing in that line – and that is one of them.   Great to hear that you have resolved it in a few generations.  It just about broke my heart to neuter one who would have been my next Best in Show dog…..

Here’s to a better 2012….

Best,  Alane

With Gaurav Malik(India)

Hi Basilio,

This is very interesting. Will definitely attract eyeballs. As a very neutral reader, to me it looks a little more in favor of Starfire. You may want it that way, a call you have to take!

Also, I do feel that you could just detail out a little more about the contribution both have made to Poms!

Hope above helps,  Gaurav

With Chris Heartz (Chriscendo Pomeranians)

December 22, 2011

“Hi Basilio,

As always, it is pleasure to talk with you on the phone. Your insight into the breed and your impression on the ways to approach the problems are based on fact, and your experience is genuine and I appreciate calling you a friend. 

I was a little surprised that you consider our dogs as having " teddy bear faces with fabulous cotton candy coats that are to die for coats with  big chunky legs like big posts…" I actually do not prefer either of these looks, and if you review all of our dogs, I think you will see that we do prefer, and the dogs we have kept, (with the exception of Colt (Call To Arms)  are moderate, both in coat and bone, and have very moderate faces.  I certainly HOPE I have not popularized "cottony" coats! I absolutely HATE cottony coats.

Colt would be the exception to what we breed and I can't help his popularity.  I feel we have developed dogs who are known for their short backs, high tail sets and beautiful side gait, and that we have have done much to improve the soundness in the breed. We have NO testicle issues, bite problems are very few and far between, while this is not the state of the whole breed it is within our own family of dogs.  But everyone also develops issues that need to be addressed if you develop a family line of dogs. For us it is coats, and as I said to you on the phone,  I feel, these issues seem to be related to the BSD problem, ie: the BSD "seems" to come with that overabundance of soft, coat. I too really admire the old Hadleigh dogs and their harsh coats are seldom seen today. We have close friends in England and have had discussions about the basic differences between the North American body type and the English type. It is huge and the English dogs tend to be built more like Shelties, in that they have absolutely no forechest and have legs mounted in front of their bodies. The English dogs tend to be very immature for several years and while their fronts do settle back and as they develop chest depth and width, and can be "normal" when they are grown up. While in North America, where everyone is in a rush to do everything, the dogs have developed very different body structure. They are built more moderately, with bigger bodies and less upright shoulder assemblies. Puppies tend to do a lot of winning in North America, while the English dogs are usually put away to mature. I am not saying these things can't be incorporated together, I am just saying that to breed these two body types together AND fix the coats may be a task for a much younger (and smarter) person than I. 

As you said, with the testicle problem, "any genetic issues can be overcome", it is with careful choice of dogs and a knowledge of basic genetics that this will happen. To have the access to the best of the English dogs and to take them to the right bitches, is not a task just anyone can do.

I think your role as a peacemaker is a noble one, The hurt caused by the comments about, not just our dogs but my own character are wounds that will be hard to forget. But I never close any doors.

As always,

sincerely, Chris

December 23, 2011

Dear Chris....

Do not get me wrong on my comments about your dog.  I really loved some of them.  Perhaps, the teddy bear and Hadleigh heads can be simply diffirenciated by the muzzle.   The Hadleigh muzzles are short with a narrower base with a good stop...they tend to be sharper on the edge with the wedged shaped requirement, and at times titled upwards....whereas the teddy bear face are also short muzzled but with a wider base....they tend to be more blunt and rounder on the edge of the muzzle.

With regards to body structure, this is something I have time and time talked with many top breeders and judges.  I have not been to England for a long time so I will have to refer to them as Old English....The old English poms have better tuck up in the body whereas the American pom is rounder and chunkier.  The old  English poms tend to be straight on the shoulders with the old classic fast small stepping movement and it is here I have tried to improve on targeting the long reach flying movement.  The English poms are slightly, some not so lightly close in the front and the rears are further apart with more rear angulation....whilst the American are equal in the distance in the front and back legs.  The old English tend to be one tract movement whereas the American is two tract movement.

What is the correct structure?  It has been theorized by many, and I am inclined to this ....that the pom is in the spitz breed and as such should have the same structure as their spitz family....closer in the front and slightly wider at the back...good tuck up,.....two tract movement.  Yes, you also have the fast American development and the lonGGGG waitiing of the old English.  I have been incorporating these two families over the past 20 years + and it is really a big effort. Starting with English and over the past 20 years using only American breedings as outcross,...and now again more recently going back to the Hadleigh of Taiwan, I find this feat challenging....and interesting.  But as you know, outcrosses though very distant linebreeding can be very frustrating.  The attached photo of Ph Gr Ch Canton Genghis Khan to me is something that is way half of both worlds....but again his coat is taking forever to grow....already over two years and it is only now that his outer coat is coming out.  By Nationals, I hope he will be ready...if I go.

Basilio

With Starfire Tony Cabrerra and Fabian Arienti

After the publication of the original is Blog 59, I got a call from Fabian who was extremely upset and to keep the peace, I volunteered to unpublish the original blog.   Further details has been discussed in my above email communication with Alane.  I thought by unpublishing what took me hours to work on and practically throwing it all away, I would have placated the wrath of the Starfire people.  Apparently, it did not.  They were silently alienated and I realized this when this grudge was vented out in a BSD group in Facebook bashing me, and even my dog.  Since they have been alienated anyway,  I see no real justification from keeping myself gagged and sharing my opinion with my blog readers are also looking for some guidance in bsd. 

I have also decided to leave that Group and here is my exit post to that Group.  I hope that it will not censored when posted.  It has been written in an objective way with no anger or grudges.  It was a simple statement of facts.

Quote

Dear Tony and friends,

A fb friend called me and asked me why I continue with the email interchanges on this Group and I answered that “I was bored and I needed some mental exercise.”  I enjoy thinking, researching and picking the brains of other people, and in the process, perhaps, learn.  I always attempt and I suppose I have been successful in staying objective and looking beyond personalities.  However, the negative reactions is becoming unfortunate, not for me, but by this Group.  There is a time and a place for everything, and now, I think it is time for me to do an exit from this group.  I wish this Group all the success, but being me, I hope you will indulge me with my last remarks…me and my thinking behind the back of my mind.

  1.        This is supposed to be an E-Group where there is an interchange of ideas.  I was wondering, if you Tony, would be more effective if you converted this to a blog.  Then, you need not be upset  by questions and interested parties can always email you for questions without fear of being publicly bashed.  You will be less unpopular bashing people and their dogs in private.  Hopefully, there will be less WALLS of offense going up and it will easier to bring your message across. Unless, of course, you want to continue this so that it will make you feel good and like god.
  2.        In intelligent mature discussions, like a debate, there is the fallacy of POISONING THE WELL.  What this means is that when you hit on personalities and character of people, you are in effect, in a losing battle because the basis of your argument is in personalities, not the issue.  You should focus on the issue, bsd issue, not on people personalities and character.
  3.         Your dogs have the same bsd origins of the “Cult,” ie, littermates Ch Great Elms Master Mark/Firestarter etc, and therefore, are their relatives.  Your other earlier dogs even originated from the Cult, ie Ch Chriscendo Calvin Klein, the grandsire of Valentino who sired many of your dogs. Your dogs have had bsd which you openly admitted.  There are many others.  You have bred bsd dogs to your bitches.  You have inbred/linebred on bsd dogs, ie, Starfire L_ _ _, and I suppose many others, I do not know.  But that is the past, I hope…and of  course,  better just thinking,  rather than doing.
  4.       You have been outcrossing to get out of bsd and you are right in doing so.  Most likely, you will clean up temporarily, in the first generation.  What do you do in the second generation?  Outcross again? If you do that you wash out all that you have done and lose your bloodline…to save time, you might as well start with totally new bitch  and use totally new studs.  If you go back to your line, then you will be perhaps be linebreeding on your bsd dogs.  How about the 3rd, 4th, nth generation…eventually you will breed back somehow to your original dogs and thereby linebreed on your bsd origins.  You say you do phenotype breeding but this goes hand in hand with genotype breedin.  It would be interesting to see your pedigrees after your rebirth, which I believe was 2010.  That means , that at worse, those behind you are 2 years behind.  Perhaps, you can be more sympathetic to them since you have been there yourself and not far ahead? Reveal the pedigrees after your rebirth to  show that you are walking your talk.
  5.        There are many other breeders years and years ahead of you whose stock is bsd free and many of what you are saying are the same as theirs.  Many of them have closed their doors on your face and refuse to have anything to do with you. You can always go to pet breeders, and perhaps overseas, where you have not offended many.

Your passion for bsd free Pomeranians is admirable but I have started to wonder if this hype with Messianic illusions is your marketing tool to sell your dogs at high prices and your justification, if they turn bsd.  Coupled with this militaristic and dictatorial administration of this Group, then perhaps, one day, if you do not change, you and your cheerleaders will be labeled Saddam and his goons.  Those cult leaders and tyrants mostly started with the most ideal of intentions and it is precisely for this reason how they got their power over people.  Power corrupts.   Just a friendly advice.

Thank you again, have a nice day.

Basilio, Canton Pomeranians, www.cantonpomeranians.com

Unquote

October 30, 2012

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Comments

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Thank you so much for your dedication and professionalism. I could spend many years reading and rereading your blogs – and I intend to do just that. This information is invaluable. It is very noble of you to try to help repair some damaged relationships among the breeders. I hope that not all of your words fall on deaf ears. Like many interpersonal difficulties, time may be the only modifier. I look forward to your future entries.
Rick

Great Article, enjoyed it very much :)

Hello Basilio,
I have to disagree with what you say here in Below from your artical above, a Carrier X Carrier can produce a BSD puppy/Carrier puppy or Clear puppy & a Clear to Carrier can produce a Clear or Carrier offspring so the resaults of these breeding are NOT all the Same & Clears are possible from these combinations, a BSD dog can only produse the gene for BSD so all ofspring from a BSD dog will be either Carriers or BSD depending on if it was a Carrier or Clear it had been bred to, if a BSD is bred to another BSD dog ALL will be BSD. Please see my notes below in brackets.
Regards: Jen Hryniuk
__________________________________________

Going again back to the basics, the Mendelian theory is quite emphatic that there are only three kinds of genes….dominant(BSD clear), recessive(BSD) and carrier(Clear looking but BSD gene carrier). If a dog is a carrier ….it does not really matter if he came from a combination of

……….bsd x clear dog, (All Carriers)

……….carrier x carrier dog, (All three posible)

……….clear x carrier dog, (Clear & Carriers posible)

……….bsd x carrier dog! (BSD & Carriers posible)

He is still a carrier. In other words, these four scenarios of carrier ancestry are in the same boat….they are carriers. Not one is better than the other.

Hi Basilio

I read your article and I am pleasantly surprised having neutral approach. This makes me think that the reaction of Starfire's people are out of context. I have not read anything that was not true or that could be considered offensive.
I want to congratulate you on the way you have treated this matter. Are you a gentleman.

Also I've been flamed for giving my opinion on the Tony's BSD group and I left.
I followed my own way for a long time and I can keep doing it. My feeling about this group is that, despite being in the fight against BSD, if you're not in the "Starfire's team", you will be attacked by its members.

Kind Regards
Ángeles
Monte Erebus Pomeranians / Spain

Jen, I suggest you read my Blog 50 in this same website. It will address your disagreement.
You may also like to read Blog 49 which also deals with BSD. Both Blogs 49 and 50 were published by the Pom Review which is the official publication of the American Pomeranian Club.

May I? This could be simpler explained by colored marbles. Using the bsd charts in my blog....the dominant is two white marbles....the recessive is 2 black marbles.....the carrier is one white and one black marble. (I have intentional changed the colors from the traditional chart to make it easier understanding). If you pair/breed two pomeranians....throw in the described combination of each pomeranian in a basket and you will have 4 marbles. The close your eyes and pick 2 marbles from the basket. What you get, will be the result of the breeding. Do this many times and you will see and understand more the results. The same and different results is summarized in probabilities in the said chart. I hope this helps.

Basilio

Wow, this is an eyeful. But at some point, we have to stare truth in the eye and call a spade a spade. I appreciate the courage and candor.

Thank you for pointing out what is obvious to those who do a lot of pedigree research... that both these two "factions" have dogs that share a common ancestry, and both have struggled with this common problem. If Starfire is in fact "moving away from BSD", they are still but a generation or two ahead of others (and generations behind some, I might argue), and should not take the superior and derogatory tone towards others that has been so common over the last 2 years. In actual fact, if you will look at the pedigrees of their dogs being shown in 2012, you will find their pedigrees as peppered with affected and carrier dogs as ever - with precious little outcrossing and often not to what i would call "clean" lines. Although they may be more diligent now in making sure that the PARENTS of the latest generations are healthy, they are continuing on with their line, as only a fool wouldn't. Their dogs are too good to waste entirely by abandoning them rather than working with what they have and trying to weed out the bad coats one generation at a time. The problem is they don't do others the courtesy of allowing them to do the same, or for using differing criteria on determining what is "safe".

Dear Basilio,
Very informative article. Highlights the two main bloodlines in the world Chriscendo and Starfire which,as you say, have essentially the same background pedigrees with minor differences owning to different selective breeding and the classic English line Hadleigh which you have tried to incorporate in your breeding program, an effort which must be recognised with appreciation. I have a breed standard sent to me by Elizabeth Heckert via email, courtesy of Chris Heartz as well as a printed copy sent to me directly by Chris Heartz for which I am ever greatful. Chris as mentioned has done tremendous work on the fronts with good neck lengths(high neck carriage) and proper shoulder layback which is essential for good reach. The same would also promote longer backs(as nature works in pairs) yet she has managed to produce dogs with short backs(or loins),high tailsets etc..but to keep the dog square she has cut down the hind angulation(less bend of stifles) as the standard authored by her mentions "moderate angulation of the hind" which is a direct result of a high tailset(less angulated pelvis) which conveys the image of a shorter back or as she puts "the pomeranian should fit in a Circle" and should be SQUARE. Had she not cut down on the loin length she would have produced slingthly longer in body dogs. Her bloodline promotes a very good reach of the front with good neck length yet a square dog with side gait where the hind paw takes the place of the front paw(or as we can say the front paw rolls off at 45 degress off the hind paw) as illustrated by Elizabeth Heckert's writeup on movement.The neck length creates the image of the pomeranian having his head over the shoulders, short back and all which conveys pompous attitude as required by the standard.This is a feat in itself as it is altering nature,as nature would produce good length of neck..leading to good length of back..leading to good length of loin..leading to good length in the dog or essentially not a square dog but something like a dalmation,essentially promoting endurance something which would not be what a pomeranian requires as its a toy. Thus what chris has done is what every great dane or doberman breeder strives for as all square breeds essentially have structure based on chris's principle. Many people the world over desire this in the pomeranian. Beautiful to look at with the cobra like neck..and beautiful self contained side gait. This requires good linebreeding or breeding essentially within the same strain to maintain this structure which has promoted early maturing line, heavy bones etc..and the coat with more undercoat and density..gorgeous to look at as pomeranian is a toy..pleasing to the eyes. Yet as everything comes with a price linebreeding also gives rise to problems as BSD being the major one. Starfire also has essentially done the same as Chris and has worked in the same ambit with minor differences in terms bone..muzzle etc..which has led to BSD problems in his line too..The old english line promotes somewhat a slightly longer in body dog with somewhat a steeper shoulder(shorter neck) and then good hind and hind reach essentially to create the impression of toe to toe movement which according to nature is the correct original dog movement with front paw coming parallel to the ground(at 180 degrees to the ground) and in line with the hind paw which is one step back. The front leading to lesser reach and more steps required to cover the same distance as you mentioned rightly. Yet it has preserved the old coat which is the essence of the breed which ever breeder including yourself wants now. Essentially both sides are promoting the same NEW thing which is different from the english standard. Starfire to combat the problem has gone for outcrosses at the risk of altering his line and essentially this new structure in favour of the old english style and correct coat..In a way reverting to the old pomeranian to combat the BSD problem..Yet this might lead to departure from this new structure and altering the pom worldover which is in love with Chris's type..In a way starfire has put Coat though essential to the dog is a cosmetic demand,on a higher pedestal.as bone and overall health is more important. In a way he wants to change what he has done all these years by trying to build the new pom with added benefits of the old..something which if not impossible maybe very very hard to achieve. This would take time taking other breeders of the other group into confidence who themselves are taking outcrosses(in the chriscendo strain) to combat the problem and leaving no stone unturned with efforts equivalent to starfire...Both are doing the same thing with different approaches as both are concerned for the breed's welfare..Thus both are encouraged to exchange healthy ideas and not posting slanderous remarks on blogs..as the whole procedure "IS BUILDING A NEW POM" which requires the consensus of all breeders world over. Hope this new exercise gives fruitful results and not more and more divisions in the breed as it would doom the breed for all times to come. Thanks for your time.Tarun aka Boypommie.India.

Tarun, you do not want a long neck. There is a difference between a long neck and a high neck placement. A long neck, when the dog moves will tend to move forward and that will destroy the profile of the pomeranian. What you want is a high neck placement and this is the kind that gives you the cobra like neck while gaiting.

sir,
I only meant to differentiate it from a short neck and steep shoulder..sufficient neck length would be required for well laid back shoulder and good reach.Yet today most of the poms have been made so square that even steep shoulders give good side gait as they match hind angulation which is also straight.

Dear Basilio

From some years ago I follow you blogg and I have learn a lot of about our dear race thanks to you. This article show the real situation and your point of view & attitude with they and the form you have treated it, show that you are a realistic breeder and gentleman because all you had written its true and nothing offensive.

We can learn all of all and nobody has the absolute truth on this problem.

I think we have a large way to resolve the BSD problem and with the help & effort from the most important breeders (all the close ones) we could be real and one day in the future put BSD out deffinitively.

You have done that many people open their eyes about it.

Definitively thousand thanks for your wonderful work with this article, all on this blogg and you work in the pom history.

Kind Regards
Jose A. Mogro
Aizens Pomeranians
Spain

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