59 Understanding the Walls of Division in Black Skin
The following Blog 59 was originally published on December 21, 2011. It was unpublished a few days later after I got a call for the Starfire people who expressed their displeasure. Trying to cope with their sensitivities, I volunteered to have it unpublished. I have gagged myself wasting the opportunity of sharing my thoughts with my blog readers who could very well learn in the process. I have regretted this, and so now, I am republishing it. The pictures of the Starfire dogs have been removed because I do not have their permission as they said so much earlier.
Follows the original blog 59 with additions thereafter.
It is Christmas time and for many of us here in the Philippines, …and I suppose in most of the Western world, it is a time enjoy the gift of family members and friends, some frequently encountered, some much less. It is a time of sentimentalism, recalling the past joyful associations and the excitement of things to come. In this context, it saddens me to see that the walls of division that has risen between two breeders, Starfire and Chriscendo, both of whom I greatly admire. It is not just the individuals but their followers as well who have joined in the bandwagon of discord and hostilities.
The Facebook group illustrates this point: There are three(3) Facebook Black Skin Groups starting the group called:
1. THE BLACK SKIN DISEASE IN POMERANIANS ….followed by
2. STARFIRE’S LET’S BE HONEST ABOUT BSD….then followed by
3. BLACK SKIN DISEASE(BSD) IN POMERANIANS(FLAME FREE VERSION).
By simple observation…readers of this blog will know what has transpired. The resurrection of the 2nd group, Starfire’s… would suggest that the first group was not honest. In my opinion, it was diplomatic and there are things that should not just be said openly and publicly because it is hurtful to the feelings of others. There is the thing called privacy. The emergence of the 3rd group, again just by plain observation would suggest that the second group was a FLAME version which necessitated the organization of the third group that was FLAME free. And so, this explains what has transpired between Starfire and Chriscendo this past year.
But when you look at the basics, both Starfire and Chriscendo are really in the same boat with bloodlines but with differing perspective, approaches and priorities in getting out of bsd. It is the intention of this blog to hopefully put some common ground on the issues involved and perhaps, lead to the direction of reconciliation.
Starfire has the record number of wins at the American Pomeranian Nationals. Tony and Fabian are very successful breeders and quite well known in the international Pomeranian circles. Their big wins are probably due to their focus on movement and showmanship. As Tony tells me, you have to have the movement to win. In some way, it implies, his priority is in movement over breed type. Starfire poms are spread around the world on a limited and selective basis, being a small kennel and being very selective in the placement of their quality dogs. I have not really pursued Starfire dogs in the past, mainly because of the bsd fear ….plus, I was not attracted to their breed type…not until I saw (1) Wolfie, aka, Am Ch Starfire’s Here Comes Trouble.
The only Starfire in my breeding program is a Parker daughter that I acquired on a swap deal…Ph Gr Ch Starfire’s Alyana. I am still waiting for puppies from her. I am hoping one day to find a suitable Starfire dog/bitch which could be incorporated in my breeding program in the future.
Chriscendo, in the person of Chris and John have shaped the minds of many Pomeranian breeders and judges today. Starting with being the artist for the American Pomeranian Breed Standard, her friendly personality and skillful networking, Chris has managed to hypnotize the world with the Chriscendo look, ….teddy bear faces with fabulous cotton candy coats that are to die for coats with big chunky legs like big posts…in effect, redefining what a Pomeranian should look like…practically looking like a different breed. This is really contrary to what the breed standard says which calls for fox-like expression with wedged-shaped muzzles, medium bones(fine bones like china/porcelain in the English standard) and harsh stand-off coats. Closely associated with that Pomeranian classic look is mischievous impish expression which is so endearing and which is the essence of the breed. Nevertheless, the Chriscendo look remains in the minds of breeders and judges of what the ideal Pomeranian should be…and they win…win…win. Perhaps not the kind of bigger winnings of the Starfire Pomeranians who has been focused on movement to win, the Chriscendo breed type has created a big following with admirers all over the world.
The Chriscendo bloodline is so popular that it is practically behind most show pomeranian in the USA…including Starfire. Canada and Thailand are what I call Chriscendo country. This year’s World Dog Show in Paris, France, illustrates the growing impact of Chriscendo Pomeranians in Europe and the rest of the world. They are the flavor of the month for most judges who are unexposed to the classic Pomeranian look as that of Hadleigh of yesteryears which illustrated the correct Pomeranian breed type.
I admire Chris for the impact she has created in the breed…how she has shape the mindset of the Pomeranian fancy. Though, I still cling to the old Hadleigh heads, (such as (2) Eng Ch Hadleigh Shining Star, (3) Jap Ch Fisherman Dream, (4) Jap Ch Hadleigh Superman and (5) Eng Ch Derronill Maxamillion), selective blending of the Chriscendo relatives(that are not bsd, not too chowey, etc) has enhanced my breeding program through the bloodlines of (6) Jake, aka Am Ch Oakridge Rock N Tradition(ascendant), (7) Rudy, aka Am Ch Valcopy Wakham Valentino(descendant), and (8) Parker, aka, Am Ch Pufpride Sweet Dreams(descendant). I believe that the blend has enhanced my coats…while maintaining the harsh stand off coats, somehow the coat density, thickness …without bsd.
It is in this regard, I want to repeat what I have stated in my earlier blog…GIVE HONOR TO THOSE WHO ARE AHEAD OF US… Though I may not fully agree with the Chriscendo look. I have this bloodline way back in SOME in some of my pedigree. Furthermore, with my close working relationship and partnering with Virginia Dimick of Pufpride Pomeranians, I will be having more of this bloodline in one branch of my breeding program.
I am hoping to act as a peacemaker and perhaps in the process help the rationalize the strategy of some of the followers of both camps, many of whom I know are also my blog readers. After all, this is dog sports…and it is in this kind of common interest where walls break down…not walls going up! If I recall correctly, during the time of President Nixon, because of a mere ping pong game, diplomatic relations between the USA and China was re-established after decades of broken diplomatic relationships.
Similarly, dog sports, specifically the Pomeranian fancy should be instrumental in developing and deepening friendships…not hostilies and enemies. Like music, it is food for the soul. We should appreciate our similarities and respect(not the same as tolerate)our differences. As they say in US, the land of promise, there is room for everyone….everyone can dream…everyone can do their own thing. Let the duly chosen organization such as the American Pomeranian Club do the police-ing and their respective Boards do the evaluation of what is and what is not ethical. Let these organizations do the sanctioning, if at all.
In the dog world, people are over sensitive about their dogs. Some are even more for their dogs than their personal selves. While Tony has been very vocal talking about the bsd in this breeding, not all are as uninhibited as him. Many, I am sure will be willing to talk with “interested parties” about their bsd issues on a one to one basis …but telling the whole world is another thing. I have responded to the challenge of Starfire in Facebook by naming the limited few bsd that I have had over the past 15 years …..4-5, and they trace back to two imported females.
I see a lot of similarities in the pedigrees of Chriscendo and Starfire and here are some of them:
Am Ch Cedarwood Image of Diamond, produced littermates(or identical pedigrees) (9) Am Ch Great Elms Firestarter, (10) Am Ch Great Elms Master Mark and interestingly, these two are full brothers to Westminister Am Ch Great Elms Prince Charming.
Firestarter was an outcrossed and heavily used by Chriscendo siring (11) Am Ch Chriscendo Classica, the dam of (12) Am Ch Chriscendo Classico. He is also the sire of (13)Am Ch Razzle Dazzle Classique which is essentially Chriscendo stuff.
Master Mark is the sire of (14) Am Ch Starfire Nicolas El Grande, the foundation of Starfire dogs.
(15) Am Ch Chriscendo Calvin Klein, the foundation male Chriscendo, is the grandsire of (7) Am Ch Valcopy Wakham Valentino(Rudy) who is in a lot of Starfire pedigrees.
(6) Am Ch Oakridge Rock N Tradition, nicknamed Jake, though not Chriscendo, have many similar ancestors to Chriscendo since both goes back to Millamoor.
The main dog of Chriscendo today(now over 10) is (16) Ch Chriscendo Call to Arms whose grandsire is doubled up on Jake.
Starfire used a doubled up Jake, Am Ch Itoba Rock N Roll Legend; I am not quite sure about Jake direct.
In turn, Jake’s great grandson, is (8) Parker, aka, Am Ch Pufpride Sweet Dreams who has been used directly on indirectly by Chriscendo, ie, (17) Tha Am Ch Starlight Dream Comes True, a Parker son and is the sire of Can Ch Chriscendo Chasing Dreams and Can Ch Chriscendo Come Closer.
Starfire has used Parker and all his ALL time favorite, (18) Luther, aka Am Ch Starfire Wicked Mean N Nasty is a Parker son. There are many of the Starfire champions sired by Parker.
The point of all this pedigree study is to point out that the similarities in the ancestors of Chriscendo and Starfire… thru different SELECTION criteria, they are totally different. And yet, they are very compatible in breeding as proven when Chriscendo bred to (19) Am Ch Starfire’s Hello Its El Hottie producing (20) Am Can Ch Chriscendo Cold Play and (21) Am Can Ch Chriscendo Chili Pepper…this only proves the Chriscendo and Starfire bloodlines mixes quite well …but they will have to combat bsd together.
If only both Chriscendo and Starfire, together with their followers and associates could work together eliminating bsd and pursuing perfection, bigger feats can be accomplished in the Pomeranian world.
For those who are interested in studying pedigrees, my website: www.cantonpomeranians.com has a large, though not complete database on the poms mentioned above. Simply, do a pedigree search to see ancestors, clicking the ancestors would lead further back to …some until as early as the early English Pomeranians imported into the USA and some as far as the Pomeranians of Queen Victoria; and click REVERSE PEDIGREE for descendants. And for people who have good Pomeranian pedigree database, I would really appreciate if they could share them with me, EXCEL format, please. Photos too. You can email me at email@example.com.
History is repeating itself. BSD in the US and Canada today is like the testicle problems 30 years ago of the Hadleigh Pomeranians of Japan . Like BSD, the testicle problem is very much sex-linked.
I remember when I started in Pomeranians in 1977, I was so infatuated with Hadleigh Pomeranians….up to this day, I think they have the best headpieces possible. Unfortunately, at that time, the biggest headache was testicle problems. I was merely told that this was because of lack of exercise and inappropriate selective breeding…and even massage could fix it. But really....how can you massage testicles that cannot even be felt by your fingers…a big time problem that has been inbred generation after generations. People from Japan, from where I imported most of these poms did not seem to worry about this issue. There was also the issue of denial. There also was the issue of not wanting to breed out for fear of losing the breed type…anything that is not Hadleigh was not good…the American poms were miniature chow chows!. I got so frustrated and eventually stopped in the Pomeranian fancy because the poms that eventually remained with me were unbreedable.
Two decades later, I was to find out the human intervention used. The most invasive and effective procedure was surgery to anchor one or two testicles down the scrotum. Once the healing is completed, it would be almost impossible to detect. Then, there was another way which was the use of silicone balls to falsify the missing. Then there was also less the invasive hormone injection to bring the testicles down…apl, profasi, etc.. This hormone injection should be given at a very young age at a month or two…the earlier the better…but you risk losing the puppy due to seizures.
Does this sound like the bsd intervention today? …Melatonin….Vaccine…etc
When I restarted the second time around in the late 80s, I still wanted Hadleigh or at least something Hadleigh because that was the look that I just love. The males that I purchased were all entire with two testicles. Breeding them to American bitches which were total outcrosses, produced entire dogs. However, as I linebred or inbred their common ancestors, the same old nightmare started becoming more and more prevalent…until I got a dog that was completely clear…that though I inbred on him, all his puppies will be entire.
What does this tell us based on the Mendelian theory? (for those who are not familiar with this, please read my bsd Blogs 49 & 50, the later explaining the Mendelian theory. It is a must for any breeder of any species to understand this. Lack of this understanding causes unnecessary fears….there will always be a fear of something you do not understand.)
The stud dogs with the Hadleigh bloodline that I acquired, though entire with two testicles were again carriers of this same problem. The various American bitches that were bred to them were clear, or at worst, carriers of the same testicle problem.
If we simply follow the Mendelian chart, if we continue breeding away from the problem in the line, eventually, the recessive gene hidden away from what appears to be normal and correct will completely vanish…and so will the breed type. Conversely, if you keep on breeding the same family of dogs with same recessive faults, the said faults will continue to recur and not completely vanish.
The trick is to have the apple and eat it too….keep the breed type minus the problem….which can only be done by selective linebreeding and inbreeding with the help of selective outcrossing. The more you linebreed and inbreed, you CEMENT the breed type but you RISK going back to your old problem. The more you do a selective outcross, the more you go further away from your problem, but you also go further away from your breed type. The challenge is finding a safe compromise or medium.
And so, this is where the difference in Starfire and Chriscendo lies.
Starfire will jump and risk doing an outcross as seen in his new stud dog Ch Starfire Vini Vidi Vici whose sire is a white dog from Great Rivers, whom he thinks is bsd clear. As Tony tells me, he would risk breed type to get out of bsd…however, with the qualification that he would not…at least, do not so badly, if at all. I would like to point out that if you outcross, you would MAY have new faults creeping in your breeding program.
I would imagine that he in turn would use this dog to breed back to his line choosing a selective female which hopefully is as bsd clear as possible, thereby maintaining the Starfire movement and breed type that he has worked on for years. In this scenario, if the bitch is still Starfire, most likely, he is still linebreding
AND/ OR, he may seek other outcrosses and the resulting outcrosses….which is half original Starfire and half outside stock could be bred back to Vini…who is half Starfire himself. This second option may be more suitable in cleaning out the bsd problem from Starfire because the bsd gene has been diluted some more. And at the same time , by crossing this two hybrids(half Starfire, half outcross), he will really still linebreeding…. and as such there is a certain predictability in the litters. Starfire is in constant search from new outcross dogs which he can infuse to his breeding program thereby cleaning up his bsd….eradicate, and if not, lessen this headache problem.
AND/OR, he may decide to do a second consecutive outcross, in which case he will wash out his years of breeding and lose his bloodline. If he were to do this, perhaps, it will save him years of waiting by culling(not kill) all his females and start 100% over again. That would be the extreme case and the other side of the pendulum. Without doing this, and maintaining his old stock, sooner or later, be it the 2nd, 3rd, Nth generation, when he keeps some of his puppies and breeds back anything from his originating stock, he will still be somehow linebreeding on bsd origins.
Chriscendo has in her possession (with breeding rights) …the Number 1 Pom in USA for 2010….Tha Am Ch Powerpom High Performance which is sired by a Parker son from Noble Pomeranians and a Banaview bitch …which means she continues to breed to relatives…though distant but which are of the same strain. Like the royalties of Europe when they were politically matched, their offspring continued to produce the same type of look and same hemophelia problem…just like the poms, the same bsd problem/other problems.
There is the fear of losing the breed type and as Chris says, she rather stop breeding than produce ugly dogs. (But perhaps, with the availability of the right choice, they may not be ugly but even prettier).
There is also the fear of new faults creeping in the bloodline. This is where selective and test breeding becomes so important in preventing or minimizing the risk of this from happening.
Perhaps, an ace over the sleeves of Chriscendo is the widespread popularity of her line and her close associations with so many breeders in the Americas and overseas. Her followers, I am sure are doing different things to attack the bsd problem in their own way…some, even outcrossing like Starfire. With a long reaching connections with breeders doing the same Chriscendo foundations and being Chriscendo friendly, Chris has other fall back positions instead of doing the total outcross herself. The group is so big that Starfire has called this group “the Cult.” Some have considered this name calling a slur, but personally, I think that it is complimenting somehow. To be a Cult leader, she must be loved and admired, not only in countries but in continents.
What are the other differences in perspective between Starfire and Chriscendo?
Starfire is to some extent a purist when it comes to bsd. Rather than risk having another bsd puppy, he would rather remove a bsd suspect which may not be a bsd after all. I qualified by saying to some extent because he is still using Luther sired bitches for breeding …and we know of course that Luther is bsd. This is the main argument of the Chriscendo group in that since Starfire is using bsd sired bitches for breeding, Starfire is not really far off from them.
Going again back to the basics, the Mendelian theory is quite emphatic that there are only three kinds of genes….dominant(BSD clear), recessive(BSD) and carrier(Clear looking but BSD gene carrier). If a dog is a carrier ….it does not really matter if he came from a combination of
……….bsd x clear dog,
……….carrier x carrier dog,
……….clear x carrier dog,
……….bsd x carrier dog!
He is still a carrier. In other words, these four scenarios of carrier ancestry are in the same boat….they are carriers. Not one is better than the other.
Being so, why is it then such a big issue if a bsd stud dog was used for breeding…but if the resulting puppy were to be selectively chosen weeding out the bsd….and keeping the bsd carrier. Or put another way, if Starfire is using a bsd carrier bitch for breeding that is bsd sired(dam of Ch Starfire’s Vini Vidi Vici), then why is it so objectionable if a bsd sire was used for breeding. Perhaps, the breeder will be one generation back from what Starfire is breeding now, but then, if this individual is willing to be one step behind re bsd, why put a red flag? Or even merely using a bsd carrier, all boils down to priorities.
I am not suggesting using a bsd sire for breeding. Most definitely not. The point of all this since bsd is a recessive gene, bsd will always be lurking behind what appears to be the normal and correct. BSD though easy to reduce, but will not be so easy to totally eradicate because there are always that conflicting goals and priorities to consider
…bsd free/selective outcross versus breed type/in and line breeding
…bsd or other priorities such as other health issues like patella, thyroid, etc
….bsd or soundness like fronts and rears, top line, movement, etc
…bsd or tails and tailsets, colors, etc
….bsd or personal limitations such as budget, stud dog locations, etc
Does is not make more sense to be united and work out this bsd problem together?
…and as my friend Brett Abraham reacted to this blog, “…it worries me as a breed newcomer to see such detrimental division in the breed. I hope this(blog) may in someway cause people to rethink support or otherwise of the Nationals being judged by Fabian and Tony. Perhaps the Nationals can be seen as an opportunity for reconciliation for the benefit of the breed rather than a blight on history by making it a divisive event.”
December 21, 2011, unpublished after a few days, republished October 30, 2012
The following are new additions to my original blog 59. They are subsequent comments and email interchanges regarding this article:
With Alane Levinsohn(Showcase Pomeranians)
December 26. 2011
I heard that you wrote a very good article on the division in our breed. Would it be possible to read it? You always have such good insight into situations.
Best regards, Alane
December 26, 2011
This is confidential.
I wrote that article hoping to be a peacemaker and perhaps as a favor to Tony and Fabian re their upcoming Nationals which I thought may be boycotted by the other side. I talked to Chris about it and she was open to healing which may take time. Unfortunately, I received 3 phone calls from Fabian and he was extremely upset about it....3 phone calls at 430 in the morning, my time. They found several things offensive...one, they do not want to be compared to Chris plus the photos of their dogs side by side with Chriscendo(quite frankly, if you are in a dog show, whether you like it or not, you will be compared!) two, it hurts them for me to say that they use bsd sired bitches which they do! Vini is sired by an El Hottie bitch, which is bsd.....Bling Bling is sired by Alberto who is bsd/bsd suspicious and his dam is by Luther who is also bsd....the truth is painful medicine. three, they were very upset I was praising Chriscendo and they feel I was saying they were shit, which in reality, Gaurav tells me that I was favoring Starfire....four.....they do not seem to be reading/objective people and too emotional...(I can always do another article...and communicate the same message without referring to them......but it is ironic, that they are so hypersensitive about themselves but not about what they say about Chris. Somehow, this bothers me very much.
I have no desire to offend anybody...and if I cannot help in bringing about reconciliation, I thought it was better to forget about it...I offered to remove the blog for friendship sake. I did not retract.
Per your request, I am attaching the article but this should not be re-circulated.
December 27, 2011
Dear Basilio, This article is as well written as I expected. There is nothing here that is not truthful and not accurate. I find it heartbreaking that this breed is so divided over an issue that SHOULD be drawing us together to solve.
And lastly, I appreciate your candor on the Hadleigh line – there are a few things that I have discovered since bringing in that line – and that is one of them. Great to hear that you have resolved it in a few generations. It just about broke my heart to neuter one who would have been my next Best in Show dog…..
Here’s to a better 2012….
With Gaurav Malik(India)
This is very interesting. Will definitely attract eyeballs. As a very neutral reader, to me it looks a little more in favor of Starfire. You may want it that way, a call you have to take!
Also, I do feel that you could just detail out a little more about the contribution both have made to Poms!
Hope above helps, Gaurav
With Chris Heartz (Chriscendo Pomeranians)
December 22, 2011
As always, it is pleasure to talk with you on the phone. Your insight into the breed and your impression on the ways to approach the problems are based on fact, and your experience is genuine and I appreciate calling you a friend.
I was a little surprised that you consider our dogs as having " teddy bear faces with fabulous cotton candy coats that are to die for coats with big chunky legs like big posts…" I actually do not prefer either of these looks, and if you review all of our dogs, I think you will see that we do prefer, and the dogs we have kept, (with the exception of Colt (Call To Arms) are moderate, both in coat and bone, and have very moderate faces. I certainly HOPE I have not popularized "cottony" coats! I absolutely HATE cottony coats.
Colt would be the exception to what we breed and I can't help his popularity. I feel we have developed dogs who are known for their short backs, high tail sets and beautiful side gait, and that we have have done much to improve the soundness in the breed. We have NO testicle issues, bite problems are very few and far between, while this is not the state of the whole breed it is within our own family of dogs. But everyone also develops issues that need to be addressed if you develop a family line of dogs. For us it is coats, and as I said to you on the phone, I feel, these issues seem to be related to the BSD problem, ie: the BSD "seems" to come with that overabundance of soft, coat. I too really admire the old Hadleigh dogs and their harsh coats are seldom seen today. We have close friends in England and have had discussions about the basic differences between the North American body type and the English type. It is huge and the English dogs tend to be built more like Shelties, in that they have absolutely no forechest and have legs mounted in front of their bodies. The English dogs tend to be very immature for several years and while their fronts do settle back and as they develop chest depth and width, and can be "normal" when they are grown up. While in North America, where everyone is in a rush to do everything, the dogs have developed very different body structure. They are built more moderately, with bigger bodies and less upright shoulder assemblies. Puppies tend to do a lot of winning in North America, while the English dogs are usually put away to mature. I am not saying these things can't be incorporated together, I am just saying that to breed these two body types together AND fix the coats may be a task for a much younger (and smarter) person than I.
As you said, with the testicle problem, "any genetic issues can be overcome", it is with careful choice of dogs and a knowledge of basic genetics that this will happen. To have the access to the best of the English dogs and to take them to the right bitches, is not a task just anyone can do.
I think your role as a peacemaker is a noble one, The hurt caused by the comments about, not just our dogs but my own character are wounds that will be hard to forget. But I never close any doors.
December 23, 2011
Do not get me wrong on my comments about your dog. I really loved some of them. Perhaps, the teddy bear and Hadleigh heads can be simply diffirenciated by the muzzle. The Hadleigh muzzles are short with a narrower base with a good stop...they tend to be sharper on the edge with the wedged shaped requirement, and at times titled upwards....whereas the teddy bear face are also short muzzled but with a wider base....they tend to be more blunt and rounder on the edge of the muzzle.
With regards to body structure, this is something I have time and time talked with many top breeders and judges. I have not been to England for a long time so I will have to refer to them as Old English....The old English poms have better tuck up in the body whereas the American pom is rounder and chunkier. The old English poms tend to be straight on the shoulders with the old classic fast small stepping movement and it is here I have tried to improve on targeting the long reach flying movement. The English poms are slightly, some not so lightly close in the front and the rears are further apart with more rear angulation....whilst the American are equal in the distance in the front and back legs. The old English tend to be one tract movement whereas the American is two tract movement.
What is the correct structure? It has been theorized by many, and I am inclined to this ....that the pom is in the spitz breed and as such should have the same structure as their spitz family....closer in the front and slightly wider at the back...good tuck up,.....two tract movement. Yes, you also have the fast American development and the lonGGGG waitiing of the old English. I have been incorporating these two families over the past 20 years + and it is really a big effort. Starting with English and over the past 20 years using only American breedings as outcross,...and now again more recently going back to the Hadleigh of Taiwan, I find this feat challenging....and interesting. But as you know, outcrosses though very distant linebreeding can be very frustrating. The attached photo of Ph Gr Ch Canton Genghis Khan to me is something that is way half of both worlds....but again his coat is taking forever to grow....already over two years and it is only now that his outer coat is coming out. By Nationals, I hope he will be ready...if I go.
With Starfire Tony Cabrerra and Fabian Arienti
After the publication of the original is Blog 59, I got a call from Fabian who was extremely upset and to keep the peace, I volunteered to unpublish the original blog. Further details has been discussed in my above email communication with Alane. I thought by unpublishing what took me hours to work on and practically throwing it all away, I would have placated the wrath of the Starfire people. Apparently, it did not. They were silently alienated and I realized this when this grudge was vented out in a BSD group in Facebook bashing me, and even my dog. Since they have been alienated anyway, I see no real justification from keeping myself gagged and sharing my opinion with my blog readers are also looking for some guidance in bsd.
I have also decided to leave that Group and here is my exit post to that Group. I hope that it will not censored when posted. It has been written in an objective way with no anger or grudges. It was a simple statement of facts.
Dear Tony and friends,
A fb friend called me and asked me why I continue with the email interchanges on this Group and I answered that “I was bored and I needed some mental exercise.” I enjoy thinking, researching and picking the brains of other people, and in the process, perhaps, learn. I always attempt and I suppose I have been successful in staying objective and looking beyond personalities. However, the negative reactions is becoming unfortunate, not for me, but by this Group. There is a time and a place for everything, and now, I think it is time for me to do an exit from this group. I wish this Group all the success, but being me, I hope you will indulge me with my last remarks…me and my thinking behind the back of my mind.
- This is supposed to be an E-Group where there is an interchange of ideas. I was wondering, if you Tony, would be more effective if you converted this to a blog. Then, you need not be upset by questions and interested parties can always email you for questions without fear of being publicly bashed. You will be less unpopular bashing people and their dogs in private. Hopefully, there will be less WALLS of offense going up and it will easier to bring your message across. Unless, of course, you want to continue this so that it will make you feel good and like god.
- In intelligent mature discussions, like a debate, there is the fallacy of POISONING THE WELL. What this means is that when you hit on personalities and character of people, you are in effect, in a losing battle because the basis of your argument is in personalities, not the issue. You should focus on the issue, bsd issue, not on people personalities and character.
- Your dogs have the same bsd origins of the “Cult,” ie, littermates Ch Great Elms Master Mark/Firestarter etc, and therefore, are their relatives. Your other earlier dogs even originated from the Cult, ie Ch Chriscendo Calvin Klein, the grandsire of Valentino who sired many of your dogs. Your dogs have had bsd which you openly admitted. There are many others. You have bred bsd dogs to your bitches. You have inbred/linebred on bsd dogs, ie, Starfire L_ _ _, and I suppose many others, I do not know. But that is the past, I hope…and of course, better just thinking, rather than doing.
- You have been outcrossing to get out of bsd and you are right in doing so. Most likely, you will clean up temporarily, in the first generation. What do you do in the second generation? Outcross again? If you do that you wash out all that you have done and lose your bloodline…to save time, you might as well start with totally new bitch and use totally new studs. If you go back to your line, then you will be perhaps be linebreeding on your bsd dogs. How about the 3rd, 4th, nth generation…eventually you will breed back somehow to your original dogs and thereby linebreed on your bsd origins. You say you do phenotype breeding but this goes hand in hand with genotype breedin. It would be interesting to see your pedigrees after your rebirth, which I believe was 2010. That means , that at worse, those behind you are 2 years behind. Perhaps, you can be more sympathetic to them since you have been there yourself and not far ahead? Reveal the pedigrees after your rebirth to show that you are walking your talk.
- There are many other breeders years and years ahead of you whose stock is bsd free and many of what you are saying are the same as theirs. Many of them have closed their doors on your face and refuse to have anything to do with you. You can always go to pet breeders, and perhaps overseas, where you have not offended many.
Your passion for bsd free Pomeranians is admirable but I have started to wonder if this hype with Messianic illusions is your marketing tool to sell your dogs at high prices and your justification, if they turn bsd. Coupled with this militaristic and dictatorial administration of this Group, then perhaps, one day, if you do not change, you and your cheerleaders will be labeled Saddam and his goons. Those cult leaders and tyrants mostly started with the most ideal of intentions and it is precisely for this reason how they got their power over people. Power corrupts. Just a friendly advice.
Thank you again, have a nice day.
Basilio, Canton Pomeranians, www.cantonpomeranians.com
October 30, 2012